Episode 10 - What's in it for me?

Today, we look back on the last eight episodes and what got us here and look towards where
we want to be individually. In our daily life, we have several hats that we put on, different
roles that we play, usually separately or sometimes two or three in any given time.
We acknowledge that it is not a straightforward journey and just like how you would balance
on a log, you sometimes fall and go back on it again with determination. Oh, we also
argue about happiness. Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.
What's in it for me? The Imperfect Clinician today is going to talk about what can we get
out of all of this deliberation we've been doing for many, many episodes now. So what
is the plan? Where do I want to be?
Yuen- I think it will be helpful for us to summarize what was discussed so far. So
we talked about unpacking our baggage, baggages, explored vulnerability, shame, guilt, accessing
our authentic self by practicing self-compassion, reflecting on our current state, whether we're
coping or thriving, between others and within self to discover purpose.
Mike- Okay. So we've got a little bit of a journey, a little bit of a plan for ourselves.
And first of all, we focus on ourselves. Then we look a bit even deeper into ourselves
and we try to establish what makes us happy. So, you know, how do we make ourselves happy
through self-compassion in a way, and then opening up to others through seeing how do
we cope, how do we thrive amongst others and in ourselves as well to find the purpose.
Yeah. So on reflection on where we are now, where did all this journey take us?
Yuen- I think I agree with most of the things that you said earlier on. I would prefer not
to use the word happy because I think for me, happiness is not the main purpose. For
me, feeling calm is what I am more working towards. So rather than all the hustle and
bustle in my head, to be able to achieve calmness in my head and in how I'm managing my day
to day is something that I would strive against. Happy to just feel quite, I don't know, superficial
to me.
It's like a slogan. It's sort of common ground that everybody understands. What do we want
in our lives? We want to be happy. But I agree that happiness can be defined by through example,
like you said before, being of service to others.
Yuen- And what I also wanted to say was I think when you do that work and the whole
process and the journey that we've talked about, it will be difficult. It will be messy.
I think it's important to acknowledge that uncomfortable, awkward, difficult, painful
feelings, emotions, journey, being able to name them, being able to be mindful of how
it affects you, how it affects your defense mechanism for you to be able to achieve calmness.
I think I just want to be a bit more mindful on how we use the language of emotions.
Mike- Absolutely. What I would like to ask you is I'm going to flip it on its head because
we agree that working on ourselves is something that we are due to, we owe to ourselves to
put ourselves in a better position than before. We want to get better in whatever we're doing
better as people, better as clinicians. So I'm going to flip it on its head and ask why
doing all of the above, all this unpacking baggage, exploring vulnerability, focusing
on shame and discovering purpose can be bad for us. Is it bad for us? Because in the short
run, in my opinion, it may not necessarily be that pretty. Why do you think it could
be bad for us?
Yuen- I think rather than bad, I would say it will be uncomfortable because it's allowing
us to reflect on our current relationship, whether it's relationship you've had all your
life, relationship that is not as easy to cut off. It allows you to assess what relationship
that you've got ongoing at the moment, which are unhealthy or draining and most importantly,
what needs work.
Mike- Okay. So essentially in the short run, we feel that it could affect relationships
with the parents, with relatives, your siblings, partners, wives, husbands, and friends that
can make you into a different person. And you can realize that the world around you
is not where you left it, essentially. You should be more mindful. I think that's the
whole purpose of it, to be more mindful and tuned in. And that not necessarily means that
the people you were surrounded by will continue on the journey. Or maybe I hope, I truly hope
that something like this, the feeling of change can be more infectious and will prompt other
people to develop themselves.
Yuen- But this is if the other person or the people are ready to accept the change to you.
Mike- Absolutely. But this is the thing. I hope that by changing ourselves and realizing,
being more mindful, presenting more empathy and all the feelings that we discussed, we're
going to be an inspiration to others. People who can see as an example. I don't want to
pick myself up in any way, but I just thought that through showing different attitude, different
recognition of the world and people around you can be inspiring for others.
Yuen- I agree. And also there might be people who will reject a newer, more improved version
of you because you are able to be more present.
Mike- And I think that's because they are also not ready, not at the same. Yeah. What
you said.
And your change most likely or sometimes might trigger their own fears that they're not ready
to address. And so sometimes when you start a journey like this, I think for me, I've
noticed that I could clearly see people who respected and support this change in me and
people who don't see the same way or people who might be judgmental or critical even without
fully understand the reasoning behind the why.
When do you feel that you need to start changing? What triggers, what inspirations you might
come across to, you know, to make a move, to decide that I can't carry on like this
or my life is not, you know, fulfilled. There is no future.
Yuen- I think there will be a lot of different ways of going about it. Some people will find
change, big changes, moving houses, moving jobs, changing something that is big in their
life that might trigger a reflection.
Mike- Change can put you in a position of vulnerability and that may require different
skillset to overcome and to progress in a way.
Yuen- And for some people it's having a close shave or having a reminder of the mortality
of being a human, to seeing somebody around them passing away or having health issues
or being very close to not surviving because of any health conditions, COVID for example
with the recent pandemic. There will be somewhere because a person has got to the point of burnout
where they go, if I continue this way, I'm way beyond the level of coping. I am overwhelmed
and I'm not able to cope anymore.
Mike- So that's good when you can recognize your own triggers. I think that it's, we as
a social animals living amongst others are even more influential in affecting other people
and showing the way too, that there is hope in change and there is change in hope.
Yuen- Yes, I agree. So I think the change came for me. It came about when I was able
to identify or able to draw some healthy boundaries around me because essentially I'm giving myself
some space to feel, to think, to feel. And once I'm able to do that and everything that
we talked about in our previous episodes, I was able to understand my actions, my reactions
better. And when I'm able to be very mindful of what I think, how I feel and how I act,
I can then affect the people around me because I'm having the practice of being mindful to
myself. Hence, I'm able to work with people around me. It doesn't have to be work where
you sit down and talk for an hour. It can be sometimes just one question where you start
to change another person's perspective or get them to think outside the box a little
bit and think actually why. Because everything that we're doing now, we can't do it for anybody
else but ourselves. And how we affect and inspire other people around us is first of
all by modelling, by example. And the second thing is to be almost like a beacon of light
of such. So when you start to show empathy, show care to people around you and build a
level of trust and have psychological safety at work or anywhere socially or in a family
setting, then people are able to open up more. And so when you're able to just ask
one or two questions that make them think, huh, I wonder why. And this is just a start.
So what I am hoping to do or what I can see based on feedback that has happened is when
I'm able to do that, it empowers people around me to make changes without even me asking
for it. So I'm not asking person A to do something.
You don't want to put yourself in a position of power over somebody's feelings. You just
show the light and allow people in, in a way.
Yes, exactly.
So after doing the whole process, I mean, it is an ongoing thing. It's not like there
is a beginning and the end. We change because it is a cycle in a way. So after being self-compassionate
and answering a third question, how did you find your fulfilment or let's call it happiness?
After doing all of that work, and it's still ongoing work, it's as if I've woken up. It's
as if I've looked at things from a completely different lens, as if my glasses has been
very dusty and now it's cleaned.
Usually when people don't say, oh, I'm awake, then they change everything in the life and
nearby. You haven't dumped me.
So I think it hasn't been easy because I started on this journey myself and I felt
that was when it was the most vulnerable part of our relationship because you weren't ready
then and I found it really hard. You know, when we talk about sometimes the growth can
be opposite direction. And that's when I was most concerned about our interaction,
our relationship. But when we got to the point, and I'm really grateful for that, that we
were able to grow together, it's not easy from both parts. I want to say probably not
easy for you either.
Yeah, well, it's a process, it's a change and it's always scary because you never know
which direction it's going to head to. We are different people, different entities,
and we may change our priorities, our purpose, our attitude towards things quite frequently.
And I think as long as the rate is similar, we can make progress together. Vaguely the
direction.
Yeah. So I would say not necessarily the same rate, but the same direction. Then our resilience
has improved in terms of the resilience of our relationship, our interaction, our communication
and also our role as parents. What did it feel like for you?
Well, for me, the alleged happiness, fulfilment or the ultimate goal or purpose is constant
learning. I mean, it is very inquisitive journey when it comes to recognising yourself, your
feelings. And I think because we constantly change, we constantly have to learn about
ourselves. But the journey as such, or being conscious of it, being mindful of it, it provides
for me like a platform to start recognising the direction of the journey and what makes
you tick, what is going to provide you the ultimate saying, yeah, I think I like it.
I feel comfortable where I am. I don't need to chase, you know, too many things to become
person at peace with myself.
I can see you trying to avoid using the word happiness after what I've said earlier on.
Because I think for me, consciousness feels more apt in terms of that when you say woken
up or that I'm woke, just like what is modern at the moment. So I want to understand what
is your, what does happiness mean to you in your context of using this word?
Well, I understand happiness as mindfulness. It just like, it feels to me, you start to
become a director of your own conscious happiness, conscious fulfilment, conscious purpose, and
you start to, rather than being just on a passenger seat, you start to be in charge
of shaping it. And I think this allows you to control it and make most of it. That's
my understanding of, you know, the ultimate happiness, yeah.
So is it right in saying that you're not to rely on anyone except yourself because only
you are responsible for your own happiness?
Look, people may find happiness, or what they refer to as happiness, as I say, for me, it's
like a key word. It may have so many meanings and it means different things for different
people. And I think everybody should expand in their own, in their own capacity. And I,
I think that for some people, happiness can be given by, I don't know, something a bit
more materialistic. For other people, happiness is not being hungry. You know, there are different
situations people are in the world, but in my opinion, it has to affect them and it has
to affect me. I cannot expect others to make me happy because I'm going to be bitterly
disappointed. I mean, I have a best example of, of my dad who had good intentions of making
the world a better place mainly for, for himself, but through others, making him happy.
And that is not a healthy relationship. You can't find happiness through others because
then you're constantly going to raise the bar. That's not going to be fulfilled. You're
not going to be satisfied. And only being at peace with yourself can bring you the level
where you can say, I am quite fulfilled. I am doing some good for others and for myself
and my level stays, you know, stays, my head stays level. You know,
So reflecting on that, then I think myself included, and probably a lot of people who
are listening to this can, can identify with some part of it where sometimes we go, I feel
great because everything today turned out smoothly or I feel bad because somebody said
this. I think in some ways for me anyway, it then reflects, allowed me to reflect on
my own resilience to get back to that even and calm state where I always aspire to be
because you always have good moments and bad moments and it always fluctuates.
And people around shape it. Absolutely.
Yeah. And, and people around shape it. That's
right. And how we react and how we allow, how much we allow everything that's happening
around us to then dictate our emotions for the rest of the day, that is within our control.
And so when you are not able to do that, and I was, I sometimes really struggle, especially
when I don't do my self care routine properly, then I realized actually I am allowing situation,
let's say somebody criticizing me for my capabilities to completely define me as a person and define
my day. And so what does that show? For me, it shows that I'm not able to reduce the stickiness
of the situation. So I take stickiness as how much something bad is sticking on to me
and affecting me. And if I don't have the resilience, then it sticks on to me for way
too long and I need to learn to remove it. That's the thing. It's the resilience
that allows you to be independent from others. For me, trying to be happy using others in
a way. So relying on others, on your children to make you happy, on your neighbors to be,
I don't know, expecting them to be kind to you. It's adding extra, or your parents, it's
adding extra variable and the variable that you can't really control. So you're conditioning
your happiness by others and that is ultimately going to be unsuccessful.
And also, I think when you're doing that, you start to then blame and shame other
people around you because it's never your fault. It's because it's somebody else's.
You rely on others to provide you the alleged happiness. Yeah.
And I love this quote from Emmanuel Acho. He's got a lovely podcast that, if I remember
correctly, he says, an uncomfortable competition with the black man. He's a very inspiring
speaker. So he said, you don't like everyone. So why do you expect everyone to like you?
Yeah, that is true. Yeah. I think we strive to be, we strive to,
we are conditioned to be people pleaser. And it takes a lot of practice to have the confidence
to say, like what I said last episode, I don't care. Or what you say does not have any bearings
on me. Exactly. And I also sometimes ask myself
a question. Would you like to, would you prefer to die happy or accomplished? Because I see
on a certain level, there is a difference for me. There's difficult in fulfilling all
the aims that you set for yourselves. So what does it have to be either or? Because
I think accomplishment means different things for different people. So my purpose is to
be of service to others. And so when I'm doing it, I feel both happy and accomplished.
Accomplished in my understanding is achieving
own goals. So what does goals mean to you in that context?
Well, goals in terms of you want to, I don't
know, move to a different house, change the job, make sure that your child graduates uni
or whatever, gets a job. There are some things that you can, I don't know, achieve on academic
level, on personal level. So you set yourself a goals that you can never really run out
of those goals. And ultimately when you die, you cannot fulfill all of those goals.
So I think having the ability to take this
step back when you set, inverted commas, goals is to see whether it's society's conditioning
for goals to say, if you are deemed, inverted commas again, successful or accomplished,
you need to have a house, you need to have a car, you need to have a family, you know,
in terms of the societal norm. But what is actually driving you to do this? I think this
is more important. The intention is more important. The intention, that's very true. But
whether it's conscious or subconscious conditioning, you know, by the society or not, I think that
is just you set yourself a list of things to do. And if you feel pressured to fulfill
it, it doesn't matter how this list is shaped in a way. So that's for me, if you are at
peace with yourself and you know what you're doing and you're doing the hardest, the best
you can to fulfill your life purpose, that's where you can find peace and happiness because
you've done maximum of what you could have done. You've listed the best, you know, ability
of being good. And this is where you can find your purpose. And this is what ultimately
can provide peace and calmness. Yeah. And I think when you get to that point, the need
for goals fall away. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's quantifying the goals makes it
like a tick box exercise for me. Because then, you know, you are, as I say, whether it's
conscious or subconscious, it is irrelevant, but you feel like you're chasing the rabbit
and you throw in yourself into that hole and then into another hole. And then there's a
different rabbit and there is no fulfillment. There is no satisfaction. There is no ultimate
says, Oh, I'm done now. Yeah. Cause when does it come? We always, in most cases, either
we lose consciousness or we start suffering from dementia and you never have, you can
hardly ever say that, right, I've done everything that I wanted in life because it always, death
comes always too early or lack of capacity. For example, you don't have mental capacity
and everything stops because you can't carry on unless the goals are set more for the emotions.
If it's for, if it's for emotion, if it's, you know, personal to be calm, that's a goal
that you can achieve yourself. And no ticking the boxes is going to stand in the way if
your emotions are level in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think when I talk about why intention
is more important, the goal, I don't want to say we shouldn't do it with goals completely,
but it can help. It can supplement so it can help us to measure. It provides us with some
perspective so we can hold people or system accountable. So with the example of if people
say, right, I want a great high performance team. And if you are moving towards the goal
based exercise, you will then just look at the numbers. How much output are we giving?
And then performance review people based on that. However, if you have a very clear purpose
and you go, I want my team to feel included. I want my team to be able to grow and I want
to support them with that. And that's your intention. You will get the outcome of what
you wanted and the goals or the results might help you, but that doesn't define you because
you're starting from pure right purpose and that's going to give you analog results in
a way rather than digital, you know, spreadsheet and the results. Well, you will have to some
extent, but that's not going to be the main focus. The main focus should be on people
and on the progression and not necessarily on the targets themselves. Of course, you
have to achieve certain targets and it's understandable, but that shouldn't be the aim in itself. That
shouldn't be the purpose. Yeah. And I also want to say sometimes goals or numbers or
statistics are helpful. So when we look at how we want to reduce the amount of biases
in system, because systems are in place for a long time and it's not been really evaluated.
How do we reduce gender bias? How do we reduce racial bias and other marginalized community
bias? I think the numbers then gives us some perspective and we can work on this with clear
intention and use the numbers to help supplement our next step alongside other things. The
numbers can't be the only thing that we rely on, but it will then allow us to hold system
and people accountable.
I think that the numbers and the goals in that respect, yes, absolutely. Because once
something is measurable, then you can manage it. And that's how you see the progress.
It could be an evidence, a hard evidence, but the change of the variables like mathematics,
you know, digital variables, it doesn't necessarily mean that the team or people progress and
that there is fulfillment. And there is, you know, even if it's going up because you can
achieve it at all costs and you're not going to work on retention, I don't know, future
proofing of your team and other factors that are not as obvious and clear cut as the results
as such. So whether you are prepared to invest in the long game and work on general on the
purpose or whether you focus on the short term, you're fulfilling the goals because
your position is only tenable for a year or for two years, for example. And then, you
know, you have to prove yourself by then. It is great responsibility of leaders to recognize
the purpose and support the team on the journey whilst having control of the figures. I mean,
that's very important.
I think as a clinician, that will come through as patient safety, data audits, whatever that
we're doing. And that's one thing I always hammer home to my team is when you don't have
the practice to give yourself the space to reflect, to improve, it is then harder for
you to do that for other people. Because I think the easiest example sometimes I say
to my team is if you are not a confident person at home, for you to be a confident clinician,
it's usually more likely you are similar to what you like at home instead of directly
opposite. So when you look at how to be a better clinician, excluding the clinical side
of it, better clinician, better leader, you have to be able to look at yourself and go,
how can I be a better person?
That's true. And I also building on what you're saying about being a confident clinician,
I don't think that being a well-trained clinician equals being a more confident clinician because
sometimes we feel like if we know more, we're going to be more confident. You will be more
confident with your knowledge, but not necessarily as a person. You have to work on this separately.
Yes. And I hear that a lot from the students that I teach and train where they go, I am
not confident, but I will be when I get this qualification or when I pass this exam. And
a lot of the time I say to them, you wouldn't. And then they say, but you know, I said that
to myself when I moved from the first year to the second year in uni, but when I got
to the second year, I'm still the same. And I said, you probably will feel the same unless
you put in the effort to reflect and to sit in with it, to listen rather than understand
how you can use it. It's like with birthdays, when you come to your birthday, it doesn't
matter whether you are 29 in 10, 30, it's just a day's difference. That doesn't change
anything. So this is the same with, you know, with obtaining, getting more training, you
learn more. Yes. You know, more, your knowledge is greater, but it doesn't make you a different
person. It doesn't make you a better communicator. Does it make you more empathetic? I agree.
That's a good analogy. Actually. I will use that in the future. It's, it's, it's a short
term goal. You feel that you, that you can fulfill yourself with knowledge, but knowledge
is nothing without communication. We talked about it earlier that if you can't really
sell it, then yes, you're going to be a clever person, but what difference are you going
to make to others? What's what is the purpose of that knowledge? Is it just because you
want to read 789 books and memorize? No, that's a very selfish goal and probably not needed
when we have digital. We were talking about it with analog and digital skills. I mean,
how much knowledge do you need these days versus how do, what do you do with that knowledge?
We have access to your, to the knowledge at our fingertips. And so just to wrap it up,
what's in all this process for me, for you? For me, it changed me. I think that's an oversimplified
answer, but I feel like I approach everything from a simple thing as walking to speaking
to colleagues, to speaking to my daughters, to breathing. When I'm able to be mindful,
I notice that it doesn't have to be time consuming. It doesn't have to take hours and
hours. It doesn't have to. Walking from the toilet back, I can slow down my breathing
and give myself 30 seconds or even less of some calm time. I can give myself that space
to be able to go, okay, where am I? How do I feel? And check in, check in with yourself.
Just as important when you're checking on other people. I've heard, Una Eubau said this
in her interview with Ellen. She said, when we have physical pain, if we spill anything
hot on our skin, that physical pain is similar to when we have emotional pain. And so we
care for our physical pain. We take care of it. We give it time to heal. Whereas emotionally,
we just go, oh, not important. Oh, I don't have time to look at it. And to sweep it under
the carpet. We really need to give ourselves time to acknowledge how we feel on a day to
day basis, let alone if we haven't had the opportunity or the practice to look at all
the emotions as build up throughout your whole life. And so it's a lot of unpacking to do.
And it's not quick, but it's so worth it. Would you say, I think I triggered this,
I hope I inspired or triggered some start in you. Would you say it's worth the effort,
whether it's worth the time?
SH. First of all, it shouldn't be allowed because you took my analogy. I wanted to tell
you about the breathing. Yeah. I think it is actually, you start breathing more consciously.
You start to appreciate the air around you. You don't just take it for granted. And I
think that when you do a little bit, a bit of work on yourself and you notice the progress,
you start to realize that your emotions, your feelings, your interactions with others, you
become more conscious of it. And if it's worth it, yes, of course it's worth it. It is something
that will not take you back to before you started. It's irreversible. I think that in
order to understand yourself, to start digging, you will only benefit if you do it right.
If you allow yourself enough time, if you're surrounded by people who will support you
and if you support them, because it's always mutual. I mean, we are social animals and
we need interactions with others. And the better we are at talking to ourselves, the
more we can more effectively and efficiently, we can communicate with others and be understood
better. A lot of worries, concerns, scares is because we cannot explain ourselves. We
cannot articulate our fears, our worries, our concerns and feelings.
So I think I agree with you. One part where you talk about the language of emotions is
really important. And the second thing is actually you need to have a lot of courage.
You need to be very brave to address your fears because when you're able to, you can
then help to inspire the people around you to be brave. And also you can identify those
courageous people and help give them a nudge forward. So we talk about resilience a lot
in this episode, or we mentioned it a slightly bit, but in our next episode, we'll delve
into a little bit more. I hope you're able to relate to what we're saying. Give yourself
plenty, plenty of time of reflection. You might want to come back and listen to this
again. Allow yourself a bit more reflection. Do it in solidarity. Do it with the people
that will support you. Do it together to get some synergistic energy, whichever way, reflect
and give yourself the space and hopefully the dust will be removed. Thank you for listening.
Thank you. It's been Ewan and Mike, and you have been listening to the imperfect
clinician podcast. You can follow the imperfect clinician on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
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