I Am Really Bad With IT - When Ignorance Meets Technology: A Cognitive Bias Tale

Mike 

How are you doing? I can see you struggling. 

Yuen 

Ohh not very good with computers. 

Mike 

I have heard it so many times. What does it actually mean and is it always true? Stay with us to find out more. My name is Mike. 

Yuen 

And it's Yuen. 

Mike 

Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.  

Today we're talking about something that most of us have heard before. I certainly have done in the past and that is people saying I'm really bad with the computers. What do you think? Have you come across anybody saying that? 

Yuen 

Yes, I think. Either it is within the family circle or work circle? You'll definitely have one or two people that I've given such comment where they go ‘I'm not very good at technology’ and usually when they say that I'm trying to understand where are they coming from. So are they coming from cause? We've had a lot of trials with it, but it usually makes them really frustrated, so they don't really want to try again. Or are they coming from a place of fear? In terms of whatever make a mistake is better than I say, I don't know. 

Mike 

Well, with the computers it's quite specific where you actually think that whenever you're pressing the button, you're going to destroy everything and it's going to be a total doom and gloom and things going to all of a sudden open the eternal, you know, eye that's going to black hole essentially suck you in. I think that when somebody says, well, I'm actually bad with the IT. They're trying to sort of belittle the knowledge a bit to tell us that, well, actually. Is it a cry for help asking for somebody to help them. Or is it something to lower the expectations of what they actually can do? 

Yuen 

I think it can be both. The cry for help can be I'm really struggling. Can you help me? It might be also that the person’s having more of a fixed mindset. Where? That's it. I just can't be good at it. So there's no point. 

Mike 

In me trying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Yuen 

It In me trying or getting better, I've just I've accepted this is where I stand and I can't get any. Better with it. 

Mike 

I usually come across it and it takes more than once. I think we all might have been on the meeting or the presentation. Where we want to make sure that all the connections, all the, I don't know projectors or whatever are working and things simply don't always connect as we would like them, I mean the common approach of switching everything off and switching back on very often does work, but sometimes we just to lower expectation to say I don't expect a lot from my IT skills. I think in a lot of cases this is just showing the well, actually this is not my specialty and that sort of builds up to the fact that I might be good at something else to highlight the other skill that people might have, the actual content of the presentation might be in that context, much more important. I think that there is something to do with one of the cognitive biases. That we might have, and I think that it's quite reasonable thing to try to understand. Why we do that? Have you ever done that? 

Yuen 

You mentioned about the cognitive biases. I think it would be interesting to expand on that a little bit more before we get into our own experience with it, because it will give some helpful context in terms of where we're looking at it. 

Mike 

OK. So in this particular case I am looking at the cognitive bias. That's been described in Dunning-Kruger effect. It's essentially a result of being overconfident with lack of either experience of awareness, of understanding of what you need to know, but also it can be for people who are very knowledgeable in the subject, can lower the expectations by thinking that they still don't know enough and that their skills or knowledge is quite low. So, the impact of it is that both of those can lead to some potentially serious consequences. So in the first case where you feel that you are overconfident, it might mean, for example, when you start driving, there is a lot of evidence that most accidents for young drivers is in the first six months of them starting to drive because they feel that they can drive better than they actually can. They lack the necessary experience, awareness or the knowledge. Whereas the latter, which is not realising that you are actually much better skill than you present yourself to be. That can prevent us from progressing from getting better because actually we don't quite realise the potential of our skill. Do you have anything to add on to this effect? 

Yuen 

Yes, so I agree. I think sometimes I see people. Or when they know quite a lot, they assume everyone is where they are, or even better, so they forget how much they truly know is until they work with, let's say somebody new or somebody who's less experienced and when they're talking they then realise: ‘Ohh actually. I know more than I thought I would. I'm actually, you know, more experienced than my peers’, perhaps because this person surrounded by. Similarly, experienced people so was under the impression that what he or she or they knew is in the inverted commas norm. 

Mike 

Yeah. It's like as if you were, like, downplaying your ability and downplaying your knowledge and skill. And I think it stems from the lack of confidence that we were talking about in the previous episode. I think that we sometimes just simply forget that we are actually better than we believe we are. I think that it is very important to realise our worth in that respect, because that can give us a boost to progress even further. So in this effect, when we're looking at the hierarchy of competence, there are four quite distinctive stages of that competence. So you can have unconscious incompetence. That's usually in the beginning of a journey, so you're ignorant of what you don't know. 

Yuen 

Similar to the driving analogy that you mentioned. 

Mike 

But simply to the driver, you don't have the experience. You don't have the knowledge or you lack in imagination about the things that might potentially happen. Then the second stage is the conscious incompetence. So, you are aware that there is a lot to learn. There is a lot to know. But you're not willing to learn. Or not interested in knowing more. 

Yuen 

And this might fall into the group of people that when we talk about. Maybe they've had a lot of problems with it, and so every time they come across anything that they consider this technology related or computer related, they automatically don't want to do anymore. And for me that makes it difficult because almost like they set the barrier. 

Mike 

Or challenging. Yeah. 

Yuen 

Themselves, even before trying. 

Mike 

But it's just. Yeah, but I understand this from this point of view that just says that right? I'm not interested. In it I have to do it because it's necessary. But I don't want to, you know, explore this any further. I know what I know, and I don't want to know any more. 

Yuen 

But I think in a lot of work environment when you come across this sort of attitude or mindset, it's going to be hard because work is ever evolving in regardless of any sector you’re in, the need to understand the technology is more and more. 

Mike 

Saying I completely agree and I think that we need to embrace those things that we need to use, but we're not good at as the old saying goes, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem and I understand that a lot of people have got reservations and, you know, when I'm doing something on a small keyboard, my chunky fingers may not necessarily operate as swiftly as somebody who is 20 years younger than me, but I still try. I I don't always win, but I still try to do it. 

Yuen 

And do you not think the more I avoid to do it, the more I dislike doing it? 

Mike 

I think I think that's absolutely spot on because you generate the destination. If you feel right, I'm going to fail and then you don't really try to understand where you're going wrong or how to try or how to seek help or support, that's when you fail and it's like a spiral of doom. It's it down here, right from there on, because you just right, I'm not going to be able to do it. Then I’m scared of trying to fix it, and then you leave it and you just stays like this and you don't really improve. You don't learn anything. And and that's getting more and more frustrating and it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy in that respect. 

Yuen 

And do you not think because you think you're going to fail? You step into it with a different mindset or a different set of emotions? You go into it feeling frustrated even before you start. 

Mike 

Yeah, yeah. 

Yuen 

So the frustration. Would only build up from there and not reduce. 

Mike 

Like me doing any paperwork? 

Yuen 

Yes, because whereas if you're going to something, think I'm going to give it a go. If I fail, at least I've tried. And if I can't do it, I will ask for help but I will give that a try. And the fact that I've tried this is already a step in terms of making myself best. You go in with a different frame of mind, so different starting point that you go into. And so if you are so frustrated at the start, it can't improve from that. It can only go downhill. Like you said, you're setting up yourself to fail. 

Mike 

But these are the sort of biases that I think all of us have got that there are things that we don't like. And even though we might potentially be reasonably, you know, competent in doing them, we just don't want to explore further for me first thing would be DIY if I'm supposed to, you know, do something that involves any manual tasks. Probably if I put my head into it, I'll be able to do it, and sometimes I do do it. You probably can certify it if I need to, I will do it. But I don't like doing it. I refuse to do it as much as I can and I only do it as a last resort. The same thing with me is for example, with gardening. That's something that I don't like. I think it's just not for me and I just try to avoid touching it as much as I can. Have you got any like those? 

Yuen 

Having small talks. Superficial talks, so I enjoy going out with friends and have quite deep, invigorating conversation. 

Mike 

You like meaningful things. 

Yuen 

Yes. Whereas I find that if I am just having small chats that is I guess needed but insignificant, that doesn't lead anywhere. I just leave that conversation feeling tired and what's the point? And this is something that I don't like doing. I know sometimes I don't have a choice. I might do that. But I tend to pass on the responsibility to you. 

Mike 

OK. Well, well, I I just like talking. Doesn't matter because whether it's, uh, meaningful, I mean serious or quite invigorating, like say, or nourishing conversation, something that you can learn from. You learn about other people just by being curious on what they want to talk about. If you are. Leading the conversation to something that is only nourishing serious and very deep then you are missing out on understanding the whole picture of the person. I think. I think there is an opportunity to talk about both. 

Yuen 

Yes, I guess for me, I find it really difficult to talk to people who are very close. 

Mike 

I think you find it tiring more than anything. 

Yuen 

Yes, especially when they struggle to open up, it doesn't have to be deep. I don’t know therapeutic conversation, for example, but as long as that person's open and being able to be vulnerable in the conversation and have a proper connection and not... 

Mike 

Not weather talk. 

Yuen 

Not weather talk. Exactly, yeah. I don't mind weather talk, but it is only weather talk all the time. It really tires me. 

Mike 

But does it does come on because does it not make you in that respect, quite selfish in terms of you dictate on what you're talking about? Cause right? I'm only interested in talking about this then the other and not what about other persons talking. 

Yuen 

No, not about what I want to talk about. Is I want to when I speak to other people, I would like to build connection and have an open, honest conversation. I know not all conversations can be like this, so I am very selective of the time that I spend because my time spent with others is, first of all, is that, like you said, nourishing for me? Is it nourishing for the family? Because how I feel after that conversation, I'm taking this energy away and speak to the children so I prioritise socialising to a handful of people and in the past maybe I feel that I need to do that with everybody and I come back drained of energy and not in the best frame of mind to speak to you, or to speak to the kid. It and I choose to prioritise my well-being in that way. 

Mike 

Yeah. And then that's fine. It's absolutely fine if that's what you prefer, you know in order to, you know, grow yourself, I guess for me, chit chat or the, you know, the shallow talk or weather talk, whatever you want to call it, it's like an introduction to understanding other people. Because let's face it. We live in the UK and UK’s weather is really poor, so you usually joke about the weather and by joking with other people, it's like trying to find somebody who is like minded in that respect. And I think that this is just introduction that allows you for people to be more vulnerable through humour and that's what starts me off. Then later, because you can talk about other things once you realise that you and another person is quite open. 

Yuen 

So to clarify, I'm not saying that I would avoid or where the conversation where the conversation to start off is fine, but if you have 20-30 contacts and they're all resulting of other conversation. 

Mike 

Oh no, of course, yes. 

Yuen 

Then I know this is. 

Mike 

Not yeah, it is. Timing. Yeah, I. Guess you know. 

Yuen 

You enjoy that, which is fine because you enjoy talking. Everyone needs to understand how they recharge and what activity do they do to discharge. So for you, you might say this is something that you should be doing. I disagree. I don't think this works for me, so I don't think it's fair to say it's a one size fit all for other people. And when you say selfish, I think that should be self-care because we should be caring how we manage our whatever that we have on our plate and we talked about it so many times and not overstretch ourselves. 

Mike 

No, no, I agree. I don't think that even being selfish is a negative thing because it just means that we prioritise different things that others and we don't have to conform with whatever everybody else wants to discuss about or, you know, want to, sort of enlighten our life with. Two more things that we didn't discuss is the remaining 2 stages of the competence. So first one was the unconscious incompetence. Just to remind you, second one was the conscious incompetence where we don't want to take any more steps to learn more. And then there are two leftover ones. One is the conscious competence, so we're actively learning and acquiring the knowledge or the skill when it comes to the certain subject. And this is the moment where we really embrace the learning opportunity and that we want to progress. And then there is a risk that we can step into the unconscious competence so that we have mastered the subject, but we've mastered it to that level that we might forget or sometimes also take for granted how much we really know and how much we really realise and going into that stage may stop us from progressing because we are actually thinking that, well, actually we don't have this drive to learn even more or to expand on it. 

Yuen 

So I guess understanding about those differences is quite important because when you say it's a cognitive bias, essentially it means. We have our own blind spots and it takes self-awareness and practise to almost step back and see ourselves from a third party perspective and go where am I actually now and what can I do to be better. Do I fall in one of the four areas that you've talked about? You know, you said the third one was the best and it's good if we're in that spot. But in any of the others it's important to then address why are we in those stages? Is it because of the lack of awareness? It's like you don't know what you don't know. Or is it because it's a fear driven behaviour? Or is it because a lack of confidence? 

Mike 

So we have to start essentially with facts, start to analyse the facts that are actually quite independent of our feelings about it. Yeah. So we said, well, we know that much. And this is we need to find out to grow. So you sort of realise where you are. Is that right? 

Yuen 

That helps, I think, gathering constructive and honest feedback from others around you would also help, because you know your own perspective however much you try might be bias or through coloured lens. 

Mike 

I mean, in fact, I'm not. 

Yuen 

At some stage. 

Mike 

Bias free? Absolutely not, but it's a good sort of beginning. 

Yuen 

Yeah. And if you have a 360 view or as much of a 360 view, you hopefully covering all of the areas and have less blind spots when you do that and this is a chance for you to look at improving yourself and I don't think this should be just annually. This should be regularly. It doesn't have to be a very formal sit down feedback. It can be: ‘tell me one thing that you think I'm doing well and one thing I need to work on’, you know, in passing conversation. 

Mike 

So in order to challenge that particular cognitive bias, starting with facts is a good beginning. Then I think it's important to recognise the emotions because that allows us to separate them from the actual reality. Because we can be quite strongly driven to understand that, right, this is something I don't like, hate, whatever. Don't want to do it. But we have to realise that it's not necessarily connected with facts, that it's actually just the feelings and emotions, essentially. I think the next step would be to talk to others, to get some feedback on that particular thing. The next thing, as you mentioned, is asking for feedback. Asking others to shed a bit of light on what you know, how you know it. And I think this allows you to assess that in a bit broader perspective, including others as well. I think focusing also on learning on having this growth mindset is also a positive thing that allows us to grow and avoid that sort of bias. And I think also realising at some stage that you might potentially be imperfect, be wrong. Make mistakes can allow you to accept that fact as a part of the learning process and all those steps may not be a guarantee that you're going to be, you know, biassed in any way, but I think they allow us to look at things in a bit more organised and structured manner. I think that all the cognitive biases that are surrounding us and are part of our lives, and realising them, often naming them and working on them can allow us to be just fairer, I guess. Do you think that is fair? What I said. Mind the pun. 

Yuen 

Yes, I think so. I think acknowledging that we will have vices, we will have blind spots and what are the things that are in place to do that and being astute enough to find those people who can give you honest feedback. It's very important because if you are surrounded by people, go ‘You did a great job’ all the time. Then your blind spots will be even wider. 

Mike 

Yeah. So if you tell anybody, I'm really bad with IT. I don't know how to fix it. And then you actually fix it. It doesn't mean that you don't know how to go about things. It might be the case that you don't quite realise your potential. And having a bit of confidence to present yourself as a bit more knowledgeable, can help you overcome those things that you don't like to do or don't want to do what you have to do, because that everything is like gardening. Then you just can avoid it and say right, I'm not doing it at work. It's a bit more complicated because you are expected to do certain things. On the other hand, it also gives a chance. To shine to those that are really good with it, and that can really improve your knowledge of it and fluency in using it. So use them to learn from them and get better. I'm still working on my IT with others. I hope you are as well and I still try to use my thumb on my phone more efficiently. And I'm failing... That is it from us today and we hope you're going to join us next week. Until then. Thank you. Bye, bye.  

Mike 

It’s about time for Yuen Reads. 

Yuen 

In Yuen Reads today we are looking at Susan Cain. Her book called ‘Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking’. I used to think extroversion is the preferred option in the world, but Susan Kane explored the benefits and shortcomings of both introverts and extroverts in the world that I feel is created for extroverts to succeed, she provides strategies and ideas for introverts to thrive by tapping into our special strengths, it gives introverts like myself a lot of hope. When I was growing up and this is always a book that I would recommend too. Other introverts when I see them, when they feel that surviving in the world of today. Can be overwhelming. 

Mike 

Thank you for listening to The Imperfect Clinician podcast. 

Yuen 

Grow and learn with us using our experience and flaws, just like we'd learn every day about ourselves. The best way to support us is to hit that follow or subscribe button. Thanks for your participation in our socials. We take to heart the ratings, reviews and comments. 

Mike 

The best way we can repay you is by making this podcast. Better and by reaching and inspiring more people like you, like us. Until next time.