Episode 3 - Unpacking Yuen's baggage

Hello and welcome again to The Imperfect Clinician. My name is Mike Grudzinski and in Episode 3 Yuen will give us insight to her childhood and upbringing and discuss how these affect her current journey so we can understand better where she is now.
Some of it will be personal but we promise to be raw and open. Everyone has their own story.
Find time to reflect on your own baggage from your early years, return to how you were and see the connections to how you are now. Enjoy!
Hello and thank you for joining us for Episode 3 of The Imperfect Clinician. My name is Mike Grudzinski and I'm here with Yuen.
Yuen is here with me as well and this week we want to take it to the time we were before Episode 2.
So in Episode 2 we were discussing where we are now as people and as clinicians and now we want to look at how we got here.
So we're going to try to unpack our baggage. We all have some histories that formed us to the shape we are currently in.
We all have childhood, bring in and all the little bits of our lives that brought us where we are here.
So we want to be honest, we want to show you that we are also vulnerable and we want to learn ourselves and grow with you.
It's a journey so to make sure you pack the right things with you, first you have to make sure that you unpack your baggage.
Otherwise you will struggle to try anything new because all this space is going to be already preoccupied.
Okay, Yuen, tell me your story.
What would you like to know?
Well, start from the beginning.
What childhood, like you said.
Yeah, what are you like as a child, how you got here, yeah.
I was nerdy as a child, so I really liked books and that has always been something that has been praised, so my hobby has been praised.
And then when I was growing up, same again, nerdy, I think cultural and expectation sort of formed that.
And to give you some context, I'm from Malaysia.
And so growing up in an Asian culture, the competitiveness, the comparison has always been something that I grew up with.
And then I went to uni in the UK, moved to the UK, studied here and then stayed here ever since.
Okay. And what was your daily life? What were you worried about when you were a child? What were you happy about? How was it for you?
So it might sound a bit sad, but I think when I'm happy, it's when I got good grades.
Okay, but this is something that's enforced by the cultural upbringing, would you say?
Culture and family, I want to say, because my mom's a teacher.
Okay, there you go.
So she's a teacher in the same school. And so if I don't score well, another teacher will, before even telling me, will go and tell my mom, oh, I don't think your daughter did very well.
Oh, there's pressure.
Yeah. So for me, why does it make it happy? Because I have less to deal with. I have less disappointment to deal with. I have less, why did you not do better to deal with?
And so I think a lot of my upbringing now, reflecting upon it, feels very performative. So I have to perform result-wise from the academic perspective.
I have to be good in extracurricular because it will look good on paper, so it will perform better on paper. It's always been the result, the outcome, not the importance of the process.
Okay, what made you upset when you were a child?
What made me upset? So I think what made me upset, initially when I couldn't reach parents' expectation, and that slowly parent and society's expectation then automatically became my own expectation.
I almost didn't need somebody else to tell me how I should perform because I've seen and heard it so many times, it became my own standard.
Okay. And so you were a nerd as a child and now are you still a nerd?
To some extent, I think, yeah, I still like to do things. I have specific things that I like to do, specific things that brings me joy, but I think I approach things, I consciously make an effort not to make it performative.
So an example of I was asked to play the piano and when I didn't like it, I was forced to continue. And then when I got to a higher grade, I just went, I don't want to do it anymore.
And I wasn't given that choice. So then I said, well, I'm coming to Nottingham, so I can't do it. So then I took that option out and because of that, the trauma of being forced to continue is something that I didn't like. I didn't touch the piano for 10 years after that.
And then what changed?
What changed? I wanted to, in a way, rebuild my relationship with the piano. I didn't want the relationship to be built upon expectation, the performance, the ticking box exercise.
But was it the love for the piano or was it the feeling that you didn't want to let your knowledge and ability to play go away?
I think it's my love for being creative with music.
Okay.
And my outlook was piano. So I wanted to approach piano in the sense of I am going to play it, but there is no restrictions. If I don't play it, there is no guilt.
And if I like it, I will play as long or as short as I like. I get to have a say. I get to have a sense of control over it.
And how does it make you feel? Does it make you feel empowered? Does it make you feel relieved? What's the first feeling that comes to mind when you came back to playing piano?
I want to say relief first, then empowered, because I was relieved that I didn't let that trauma shadow my experience with music.
And then it allowed me to be creative, to explore, to be adventurous, to be silly with the piano.
And I think one of the drivers, I wanted to show the kids that you can enjoy the instrument and take it at your own pace. Do it whenever you like to.
And I almost made a vow to myself not to enforce the same things on the children.
Well, I have a slightly different relationship with music and with instruments. Not probably as target-driven.
But first I want to ask you how your childhood and your target-driven performance rating and all the things that you had to fulfill to meet the expectations,
whether they were yours or parents or society, it's a bit less relevant. How did it prepare you for a journey as a clinician?
So back to your – I'll answer the first bit of the question, but the point that you said.
So you mentioned about your relationship with the instrument, and I think seeing your enthusiasm, your pure bliss and joy on the guitar,
and your ability to just be spontaneous and make mistakes and play something and be right or wrong, it all doesn't matter.
That was so liberating for me to watch, and I think that really helped me understand that you can be free just by letting that mindset go.
And so that was a great model for me to see that in you, because you modeled that to the children, you modeled that to me.
And so I learned from that, because I couldn't learn it in the society that I grew up with.
So yeah, back to your question about how did that childhood of the performance affected my work now, you said, and affected me as a clinician.
So I want to say it's prepared me to some extent, because a lot of the education system that we have got,
regardless of which country you are, will be performance rating, study and work.
And so when you're used to that system, you go, all right, it's the same system.
So I know how to go about it, but then the driver changes.
So for me, when I do it for that performance, for people to say, you are so good at what you're doing, you are such a good clinician,
that becomes how I see myself. If I have a bad day, or if somebody said something as a patient or as a colleague or the clinician,
I will start to doubt myself. So then I think the performance-wise worked to some extent, but it did not give me the resilience to bounce back from a bad day.
But now, going back to the analogy with the instrument, you became a quite fulfilled clinician, I want to say,
and you still want to do more, and you're quite involved in what you're doing.
And have you had that liberating moment, or was it a process in trying to find some analogy between what you come across,
the role model or the set of values that might have appeared all of a sudden during a longer process to take you where you are now?
I'd definitely say it's a long, it has been a long process ever since, even before I started working.
Every time I'm in a work environment, whether it's a placement, it's always been, I need to perform,
because whether I was working in my dad's friend's company, so my performance will be rated and then informed back to my parents.
And then when I'm then older, that becomes what I'm trying to do.
So I think what I'm trying to be, it's relatively similar, but the why behind those reasons have changed throughout the years.
So the why behind the past is, if I don't achieve this and the last step for myself, then I am not a good enough clinician.
I'm not a good enough person. So it almost informs my identity.
And because it's so fear-driven, my reaction to my surrounding, the stress, the expectation, I was quite brittle.
I think that's the only word I can think of as resilience as a person.
It was quite rigid. Things have to be in a certain way because I was so driven by insecurities and fears.
And now I still want to be a better clinician is one of the purpose why I'm doing this with you,
but I am doing it for a different purpose, a different intention altogether.
I'm doing it so that I can help myself and the people around me, all the listeners to grow collectively.
And I want to use all the effort that I've put in reading, writing, all the background work that I've put in to share the knowledge,
share the journey so people can tap into what I've learned and hopefully relate to what they've experienced in themselves
and perhaps have a quicker progression or an earlier awareness of it so they can work on it.
Because before I got into this clear purpose and intention, it was quite tiring.
It's almost like what we mentioned before about scarcity mindset.
So it's like you and I lose zero sub perspective.
So then if I share too much, what's going to happen? How is it going to affect me?
And if somebody else is better, how do I take it personally?
Whereas now, anyone's growth around me, for me, reflects the growth for the profession.
So myself, I've put myself out of the equation because it's not the ego's in the driving seat.
Not that it's very easy. I have to be very mindful not to let ego into the driving seat.
And because we're talking about unpacking the baggage that we carry with us,
how does your childhood or bringing prepare you to where you are now?
Or I will flip the question and I will ask you, would you have been in the same position?
Should you not go through all your childhood and upbringing?
Just fantasize and tell me what would have happened if that did not take place.
If you were on a different route, what were you doing if the conditions were optimal or if they were worse?
Choose the path.
That's why I'm trying to create a different environment for the children where it's not the performance.
It's the development that's important. It's how you feel is important.
Your voice is being heard regardless of your age. You are a part of the family that is important.
So your presence and you as a person is good, is great, regardless of what you have done.
So your behaviour doesn't define you. Your behaviour shows that this is a strength
or this is an area that we need to work on together.
And it's not you've done something wrong equals you're a bad person.
Instead of I've done something and you go I'm stupid or I'm stupid for doing this thing.
It's two different ways of speaking to yourself.
Very true. In the previous episode, we were talking about inventory, about Brené's Brown inventory
and the results that we have achieved there. So tell me how these results that you got
or let's talk about the bottom two characteristics you could do with improving or working on.
Where did your childhood and your upbringing, how did it got you to that point?
So I want to say to all the listeners, it can be your bottom two. It doesn't have to be, it can be any two areas.
For me, these two areas really relate to me in terms of my own personal growth.
So last week I talked about perfectionism.
So in Brené Brown's book, The Gifts of Imperfection and Atlas of the Heart,
and a lot you've probably heard it so many times, even in her TED Talk, perfectionism, what birthed perfectionism?
It's shame, shame culture. So I talked about earlier on I am stupid, it's shame.
I did a stupid thing, it's guilt. So you let it define you as a person, that's shame.
So I grew up in a culture, I didn't know the language then, but I grew up in a culture where it's very normal to be shamed.
I'll give you an example that I remember quite vividly.
So I had a period of rebelliousness and for me, rebelliousness, some people might scoff and think that is rebellious.
For me, it's not studying and that's a big thing in the house, a big thing.
So then after trying everything, threats, what my parents did was they drove me to look at homeless people.
And because in our country it's a different benefit system, you will see quite a lot of homeless people on the street.
And they would say to me, if you don't get good results, you will end up like this and your life would be worthless.
That's a shock therapy.
And so that is shame. It doesn't say you didn't put enough effort in, it says your worth is the same as your result that came across that way to me.
I'm sure they meant well. I've got to the point now where I can accept where they're coming from because I want to think that it's driven by their fear as well.
It's fine. Everybody wants good things for their children. Everybody wants them to be successful and to have an easier life.
Perhaps also that also comes from what if people don't think I'm a good enough parent.
And so they want to use any way that they know.
And it might be these are the only way that they know because it's an environment that they grew up with.
And that's the surroundings. It's part of society as well.
So those are not great actions. Those are shaming actions, but they are good parents.
So no, what I'm trying to do is not to shame, not to start the shame cycle again, or I'm consciously trying to break that shame cycle.
It's still a work in progress because it's so easy to fall into that because it's easy to say it.
It's so easy to blame and to resent and say something like this without realizing the impact that you have on the other person.
Because you have to reconcile it, not only shame or find the guilt or blame.
It's just how you reconcile it in your head. That's what's most important here, I think.
I disagree. I think most importantly is for you to understand what's the difference because people use shame, guilt, resentment, blame, interchangeably.
And it's not the same.
And when you're able to differentiate it, you have the awareness to reflect on how you, first of all, most importantly, how you speak to yourself.
And second of all, how you speak to other people around you because when are we most critical, to others or to ourselves?
For me, it's definitely myself.
To yourself, yeah, to yourself.
So then when you've been mindful about that, I can then know when I am shaming myself.
And so I can learn and practice that has to come from practice because I've grew up listening to these voices for 20 years, easy.
And so this becomes my neural pathway that's very, very strong and this becomes my default pathway.
So what I'm trying to do is unlearn and build a new one.
And like all new habits that you're trying to incorporate, it's difficult.
It takes effort. It takes consistency for you to get there.
So yeah, it's something that I'm trying to work on and I know where it's coming from.
So I am conscious. I'm doing everything that I can.
I think, for me, the most liberating thing is for me to find out where it came from.
And then I can work on dismantling it because when I know why, then I can reflect on, well, it's not actually me.
It's actually brought on by these environments that I had no resilience against.
But now when I know about it, I can then work on it.
So for perfectionism, this is something that I'm trying to do.
Okay, so perfectionism was the first one.
The second one, which in my opinion can link in with that, was the exhaustion as a status symbol.
Because perfectionism can be quite tiring.
Extremely.
And that can lead to exhaustion. So how do you work on that?
How do you think your upbringing got you to the point that you say, well, I'm exhausted?
In the meaning that Brene Brown considers.
So before we move on to the next point, the purpose behind unpacking all of this is first of all to have the awareness.
And second of all, to have the tool to cultivate new ways of talking to myself.
So I'm trying to practice self-compassion.
Because what am I being perfect for?
Because of the judgement.
Or am I being perfect because I'm trying to escape from judgement?
Am I being perfect because I don't want to feel inadequate?
Am I being perfect because I don't want to feel less than?
So it might be all three sometimes.
And so I have to practice this mantra that I've got, that I say to myself and to my team as well, is I am good enough.
I'm good enough as a person.
I can have a really crappy day.
But I am still a good learning clinician.
It does not reflect my ability as a person.
Same as a mum. It can be a very hard day with the children.
But I had a hard day as a mum.
It doesn't mean I'm a bad mum.
So yeah, when you talk about the exhaustion, the status symbol and productivity of self-worth.
That is a revelation to me.
Tell me more.
It shouldn't be.
But it was because it became so entrenched in me that I didn't even notice.
So what I meant by that is, I have been surrounded by women around me that would push themself to the absolute brink of exhaustion.
And that is something to celebrate.
If you stretch yourself so thin, it's great.
You are not celebrated by having boundaries.
You're not celebrated by having the courage to say, I need some time for self-care.
I grew up in a culture where we celebrate people who can do everything perfectly.
The image of the perfect roles, all the roles that they hold.
Whatever job, mum, daughter, daughter-in-law, all of that.
And by keeping this status, just by the upkeep of it.
It stretched them so thin to the level of it affecting their mental health or it's causing so much anxiety.
But it is seen as not just okay, but something that should be revered.
And I saw it and I just took it as it is.
Faith value because...
That was all you knew.
That's all I knew, exactly.
And it wasn't until I started to question things that I got a lot of denial.
Opposition.
Opposition, definitely.
Arguments, debate, that you are wrong because you are young or you wouldn't know until you get to our age.
That is not a constructive discussion.
And then this slowly became, because I couldn't find something for me to compare against, that became what I knew as norm.
So then I would push myself until I'm just stretched so thin.
Saying no is so difficult because then it's a reflection of what if I'm not good enough?
What if I'm perceived as not good enough?
What if I'm not perfect?
Back to the perfectionism, it's all interlinked, frustratingly.
Well it is, and perfectionism for me is like a precursor of exhaustion because it has to lead to it.
And it comes out, it's like a consequence of being perfect in a way.
Because you're trying to fulfill all your strict criteria or whatever the targets you have set for yourself or others have set.
Mainly yourself, because otherwise you would not be a perfectionist.
This is why we are here amongst the imperfect clinicians, because we all are imperfect.
Yes, we are all.
And I don't know, speak to any clinician and see how they are work-wise, home-wise, the balance, the time that they're scheduling for self-care.
Ask any parents who are clinicians as well and how they have strict boundaries or none at all about that.
Because what we do is we put other people as priority.
As clinicians, we put patients as priority.
As parents, we put children as priority.
As daughters, sons, we put parents as priority.
And in that list, we're not there.
There isn't any time for ourselves.
There isn't.
You're right, and this is why we like our little girls to not only love others, but also love themselves.
Yes.
I was trying to get them to practice saying, I love me.
And it was so odd at the start, because I've never heard it before.
But for them to say, yes, I love me, and the confidence that comes out of it, it just shows, hopefully it helps them.
Well, we'll see.
Join us in 20 years.
So, yeah, so what I'm trying to do, and this is, I get feedback from Mike a lot, is you don't rest, you don't play.
Or did you say, or what are your thoughts around my rest and play?
I consider probably the definition of play is different for us.
I think that it's quite important.
And to be fair, I think I had a bit of a luxury of being able to find time where I can stare at the ceiling.
That's just a saying of time for myself, that you have time to be with your thoughts, to have time to reflect, plan, do whatever you want without being restricted.
I think everybody needs to be able to find that time.
That's my meditation time.
That's your meditation time.
And it might have many different forms, and it is quite a broad idea, because different things work for different people.
I find staring at the ceiling, or some people do breathing exercises, some people do all sorts of different activities.
Gaming, oh my goodness, that's what I used to do for quite a bit.
Then it stopped when I had children.
Also, you know, scrolling your phone or whatever.
But this is something that doesn't help you come to peace with yourself.
We'll go to that part, because that's your part to say.
But I want to delve into what you think about my version of rest and my version of...
How does your version of play differ from my version of play?
Because you talk about staring into space, or just be with your thoughts, and I get that.
That is the importance of stillness.
But you do it in the form of meditation.
I do it in the form of meditation.
But that's not play.
Okay, so what about your version of play, and how is it different from mine?
Well, play is something that allows you to put your mind in a completely different position to relax it.
It could be done through a book, it could be done through running, whatever.
Going on a bike, watching a movie that you wouldn't watch otherwise.
I don't know, we don't have a lot of time to watch anything.
But occasionally we do try to see something that would be completely unrelated to what we like, to what we know.
I think it's a good idea, because then you need to focus your brain muscles on a completely different...
You're flexing different brain muscles on an activity that brings you joy, and nothing else.
There may not be anything more in it.
So I think it is quite important to find a bit of time to celebrate your enjoyment.
And you mentioned about being spontaneous as well.
Yeah, well, yes.
It comes with the fact that, right, what are we playing?
We don't know, let's just make up something that we're going to enjoy.
If you schedule something, if you plan something ahead, then you know what to expect.
And it doesn't become very often...
It may not be what you were hoping for at this particular moment, but because you planned it, you carried on with it.
And I sometimes say, right, I've got some time, why don't I do X, Y and Z?
And this is where I think that it allows me to, in this particular moment, in statu nascendi, enjoy...
At the moment of creation, you realize what you would like to do.
I say, right, I've got some time, I want to go on a bike.
I want to read a book.
I want a glass of wine.
Whatever the play is.
I think I feel our biggest disagreement about play is purpose.
So I like to do things for a reason, because if I don't, it really frustrates me.
And it might go back to my...
You look at it as wasting time.
Yeah, and it goes back to that part where productivity is self-worth.
It might be some of that.
And it might be some things I would really like to do that I want to plan in.
And Mike's version of play is purposeless, where he'll just go, but why do you need a purpose?
Just do it.
Not everything in life, in my opinion, has to have a purpose.
And I think that we often can have a better perspective on the things that matter to us,
that we need to really truly focus on, if we step away from it.
If we step away from the focus that our brains got to commit to, to get somewhere.
So if you are focused on work, if you are focused on family, whatever activities you have to do,
and there is a logical thing in your daily, weekly, or monthly cycle,
and you relax by focusing even more on things that you are going to learn, get better at,
and read books that are going to develop you as a person,
then where is time for your brain to say, all right, now I have to take it easy and just not think?
This is my meditation.
Maybe this is your play.
Maybe this is your play.
Maybe, yeah. Maybe you're right.
It's still a work in progress for me, I have to say.
I think for everything, and perhaps for all of us, it's always going to be a work in progress.
Well, I think that when it comes to play, I think I'm going a little bit backwards.
I don't think I can find enough time often to just be purposeless.
There are so many things that I have to do and want to do and that I would like to do
but never have a chance to catch up on that I struggle to find this time for myself
to do something purposeless or without thinking or spontaneous.
With young kids, it is quite hard, I feel, to...
When we retire. When we retire.
But I feel having schedule in things for your play has been helpful.
So, Mike's really into biking at the moment.
You can tell them a bit about how we schedule it in and how did it make you feel.
When I did my inventory, one of the things that came up was numbing,
and the other one was anxiety as a lifestyle.
Oh, are you going that way?
Yeah, but this is, in a way, related to it.
Because anxiety as a lifestyle, when we consider that part of that inventory,
and because that's where I sort of looked at it in a slightly different way
and led me to doing things slightly differently,
was that I like to have things as a part of routine
because that's the routine I can easily defend.
It's my defense mode and I feel happy when I've got everything sorted
and everything is always done and I feel safe.
So now, and it comes from the fact that I needed to have a clear head
to do other things that I really, really wanted to do.
So, let's say we are recording this episode of podcast, okay?
I needed to make sure that all the things are done in the house
so that I can have clear mind, so I can sit down and relax
and truly enjoy what we're doing, that we're talking to you guys,
that we're talking to each other, discussing things,
and I can really focus on there's nothing on the back of the mind.
It's a precursor to it.
Yeah, but that, unfortunately, leads to the fact that you have very little time
to do those things that you really, really want.
Because if you don't schedule it in, it appears that you never have time to do it.
So, we found some time and now, twice a week, I get a chance to hop on the bike
and go for an hour, do whatever I like on a bike, just for fun, nothing else.
Otherwise, I wasn't able to do it.
So, scheduling that, well, let's put it down into exercise and not a true play
because it's scheduled and I don't treat it as a spontaneous thing.
It is play.
It's play, but it's not something that comes out of…
I have to say, it's a hybrid.
It's a hybrid. It's a very, very good compromise.
I mean, I love biking lately.
I came back to biking after many, many years
and I thought that because our little girls are starting to bike
and if none of us were really doing it with them,
they would have dumped it after a couple of years because there wouldn't be a culture of it.
What you said about having instruments at home,
that the girls can see that it brings you joy,
that you sit in front of the piano to make yourself happy and then see you smiling.
You're not stressed in the environment
and that's why we have guitars, ukuleles and other instruments in the house.
We have jamming sessions.
And we have jamming sessions with the girls.
Not as posh as what you would see in the music videos,
but just kids strumming on guitar without any chords
and we're all singing together and out of tune and we're just having loads of fun.
First the joy and then the skill.
That's how things start, through passion,
rather than first you learn the skill and then you lose the joy.
That's what you did for many years.
Yes, exactly.
What about you came back to it?
So was it all that bad?
I would prefer your way.
I would prefer my way, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, so that was my story.
It's a lot.
Well, it wasn't the full story.
You're not 18.
Yes, and I think it's something for us to relate to
because in part two of this,
we'll talk about Mike's story.
He's talked a little about his anxiety as his lifestyle,
but we'll delve deeper into his childhood,
his upbringing and what is contributing to his anxiety as a lifestyle
and numbing, I think the other one for you is.
So we hope you can relate to my story today.
It's not easy for me to share all of this because it's hard.
I've always wanted to, I don't know,
kept it aside because it's not something that I'm proud of,
but I've come to the point where hopefully when I'm able to share my pain,
people can realise that they're not alone
and realise that we're all in this together.
So we hope you're able to relate, reflect and rise.
Thank you for listening and thank you for your time.
It's been Yuen and Mike
and you have been listening to the Imperfect Clinician podcast.
You can follow the Imperfect Clinician on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.
You will find all the information about our episodes on our website,
theimperfectclinician.com,
where you can join the discussion by leaving us a voicemail or comment.
If you haven't yet, please subscribe, rate and review our podcast wherever you listen to it.
Recommend the podcast to one person that will benefit from it.
Join us next week for another conversation.
Thank you for listening.