How To Fight The Explosion of Loneliness In An Overconnected World

Are you lonely?
Are you alone?
Are you happy being lonely?
Are you happy being alone?
Let's dive in deeper.
My name is Mike.
It's Yuen.
Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.
This episode contains mention of suicide.
If this is triggering for you, please make sure that you keep that in mind when you start the episode.
I don't know if you came across a quote from Robin Williams,
who famously committed suicide and suffered from a very severe form of depression.
And he said once about loneliness,
that I used to think that the worst thing in life was to end up alone.
It's not.
The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.
And I was thinking about it, and I thought,
that's putting a lot of responsibility on everybody else around you,
rather than on yourself trying to find people that you can rely on,
that you can support group.
I don't know, what's your thought?
Some parts of me disagree with that, and some parts of me empathise in that situation.
So I think it is my responsibility to decide who I spend time with,
because if I don't have control over that, it will be somebody else's control.
Let's say I've got five very close friends,
and out of that five people, four of them always drain my energy,
always makes me feel even more tired, makes me not feel great about myself,
but I still spend time with them.
Partially there'll be a reason of me feeling left out,
maybe the fear that I'm not good enough as a friend,
and a few other reasons when we struggle to set boundaries.
I think at the end of the day, it's still my responsibility to choose
who I'm spending time with.
And if I go, right, then technically I only have one close friend,
and I will value my time with him or her, or they, then I want to keep looking.
Whereas if I step into a situation where I'm constantly feeling lonely,
even though I'm not alone, I want to feel that I have the ability
to change that situation, or at least step out of it.
Okay.
And I agree with you that we are in control of what's happening around us.
So if we're not, then we should be in control of relationships we make,
or the circumstances and people we have around us as a support network.
I think, you know, when we mentioned in our previous episode,
do we need everyone in our life?
I think it's, you know, when you say we should have control,
I want to also say I didn't have control all the time, especially at the start.
It's with a lot of practice, with all the internal work that I slowly learn to
regain the control and slowly learn to reset the boundary.
So for people who don't feel that they can, you might feel helpless,
but you can do something about it.
Because essentially, when I'm thinking about loneliness,
it's a feeling where we cannot meet our needs for social interaction,
or social contact, or relationship.
And that puts another question in my head.
What are those needs?
Does it mean that we become lonely because our expectations are too high?
Our need for support from others is that great?
Because in our view, it might be that all I need is for somebody to love me,
all I need for somebody to have a good chat with me, all I need, you know,
and it's very hard to define one's level of need that they require from others.
And listening to Robin Williams saying about others impacting our own sphere of feelings
and emotions, it feels to me like it's a really painful process for somebody who
suffered from severe depression.
I'm thinking, does a person with depression see loneliness differently?
Or is it just a different shade of the same need for contact?
It's a lot to unpack in what you've just said.
We'll come back to the depression side of things, because I think
the construct of it differs depending on what you have around you.
But you've mentioned about what you need and the expectations might be too high,
I think, in any relationship, especially the relationship with yourself or the relationship
with other people, whether it's social or work or personal relationships.
It's really important to, again, not easy to do, to say what you actually need
instead of expecting people to read between the lines and understand you.
Yeah.
So you have to be explicit?
Yes.
It helps.
I mean, it helps if you are explicit.
Yeah.
Because the other person can't read your mind and what you are thinking, I don't know.
So I'm just guessing what you're thinking based on what I'm thinking.
Okay.
So if flipping it on its head, does it mean that you would feel less lonely if you have
lower needs for relationship or for contact with others?
So I don't think so.
I think you feel less lonely when you feel safe and you can open up and be vulnerable
to the other person because saying what you need, I feel, is making yourself feel vulnerable.
I'm telling you what I need and you can easily use it against me, or I might make myself
feel quite weak when I say that.
And there are different aspects of, or the different dimensions of loneliness, according
to Dr Vivek Murphy's book called Together, which I really resonated with.
So in the book they mention the intimate or emotional, that's one dimension where you
share a mutual bond of affection and trust.
The second one is relational or social, where you have quality friendship and social companion
for support.
And the third one is the collective loneliness, where the hunger for a network or community
of people who share your purpose and interests.
So the reason why I'm saying this and bring it back to what you said about the severe
depression, because of how the brain works and how human work as social creatures, you
feel things a lot more.
And also there is a big difference when I see patients with severe depression, with
a good support network and severe depression with no support network.
Okay.
So just define support network because it doesn't necessarily mean that these are people
that are making you less lonely.
No.
So these are the people that you can rely on, people that you can talk to, people that
you can open up to.
And a lot of the cases I see, it doesn't have to get to severe depression, but when you
get to the mild or moderate stage, because there isn't anyone that that person feels
they can trust or they can open up to, either because of past history or because they've
never had the habit of speaking to somebody because they didn't want to feel vulnerable.
They escalate a lot quicker.
Things affect them a lot quicker because with life, you always have situational triggers.
And when there is no support around you, almost like they're a bit of a buffer when they
are not there, even if it's one person, if that one person's not there, it makes so much
difference because you can feel so alone in fighting against everything that's on your
plane.
Yeah.
With regards to people who suffer from clinical depression, I guess that it doesn't help
that you're missing, you know, certain neurotransmitters and you need to supplement, let's say, with
a medication to bring it to the level which gives you enough strength and power to overcome
the clinical symptoms that you get.
So when you're talking about support network, you feel these are the people that provide
that cushion, provide that sense of belonging, would you say?
Because you can fit into any situation, you know, going back to our previous episodes
about fitting in and belonging, you can fit into a lot of situations being clinically
depressed, you know, feeling down or feeling restrained in your own head, yeah, in a way.
And when you start being able to open up in sense of finding a sense of belonging, that
reduces the chance for that loneliness that we're talking about.
I would agree.
I think so.
And the other part of the benefit of having a support network, when you're feeling down,
whether it's clinically or not, because we always have up and down days, is when you're
feeling down, you really don't want to do anything about it.
As in like, I want to avoid it, I want to leave it be and hope that it will disappear.
But a lot of the times what we choose to do doesn't help with the situation.
And so when you have people like that around you, or even as this one friend will always
say, come on, let's go out for a walk, come on, let's do this, even though I don't want
to do it, but I feel better after doing it.
And so you have more hands trying to pull you up when you're stuck in that situation.
Yeah, but the hands may not necessarily connect with you on a level that you would expect
them to, you know, they might not agree with you on something, they might still want to
entertain you, they might still want to, you know, make you feel better.
But not necessarily in a way that would allow you to be happier.
Do you know what I mean?
It feels like it's a function of meeting those expectations.
And it's based on the common agenda between you and those people that are surrounding
you.
Because a lot of, you know, interactions that we make may not be nutritious for us, may
not be, you know, wholesome, may not be nourishing us.
And, you know, you can go out with someone, have lots of fun and all that, and still don't
feel the connection.
So how do we allow for this connection to happen?
Is it because we are scared that we try not to go into, because it requires being a bit
imperfect, being a bit vulnerable to open up?
So I think one of the biggest thing is, which very commonly happened, is we try to get
those external relationships to replace what we lack internally.
So what I mean by that is I've seen people where they really struggle to see their own
self-worth and their own achievement.
And the only way that helps is for them to hear it from somebody else.
So there's a need for external validation.
Yeah.
So when they crave for external validation, maybe because they haven't had it when they're
growing up, for example, then they yearn it from people around them.
However, it doesn't matter how many times or how big you get that from, it will never
replace the whole within you, unless you do some work on it.
We were talking about external validation being very addictive and you sort of start
to rely on it.
And then you become like a second person that's fed by this need for external validation.
I think that the question of interaction between people and relationship between friends or
even families as well is not based on this need for external validation or of that support
that somebody convinced you that you're doing what you're supposed to do.
And that's something beyond that.
And, you know, I have a close group of friends that I don't talk very frequently at all,
but I know that they are there and I know they're not going to let me down.
And that for me prevents me from feeling lonely.
Yes, I would like to, you know, get the entertainment value and see them more often.
And that would be amazing, but due to, you know, life choices and how every day is going
on, it's not always possible.
But I know that I can always pick up the phone if I feel a little bit low, a little bit down,
or if I just want to have a chat with somebody that will understand me of how I was in the
past, because that's, you know, when you build your friendship, you start this relationship
being in a certain moment in time in the past.
Usually you get this connection when you are quite happy or when somebody comes helping
you because something bad happened, for example, and that connection happens there.
And by cultivating this relationship, it's always rooted in what happened in the very,
you know, first forming times of this relationship.
And it's good that you have that, but I want to say not a lot of people do.
I agree, yeah.
These are not common situations, those are more rarity or gems.
And those external violations doesn't have to come in praise.
Those can come from maybe I don't feel loved.
And so I'm trying to seek it in all of the romantic relationships, but I still can't
find it because I haven't loved myself yet.
And so I think it's really important when we talk about loneliness to give the perspective
that understand what you are trying to get.
When you say the expectation side of things, whether it is something internal that you
have to work within to address, or is it because I struggle to be vulnerable to others?
And so I struggle to open up.
And it is very individual and it is very subjective.
I guess it's going to be different for different people, but for me, for example, I think that
those friendships, whether it's a relationship, romantic relationships, you know, families,
how they are bonded together, that's unconditional to some extent of what your expectations are.
So it's sort of like a base, it's always there no matter what happens.
And you don't have a threshold below which ones you sort of reject those people because
those people are always there and you don't want to go into the relationship with the
friend, for example, saying that, Oh, if they're going to tell me off, I'm not going to talk
to them and therefore become more lonely.
So for me, it's more unconditional, those connections with others.
Yeah.
And I guess when you talk about building those relationships during the uni times or high
school times, you're growing up still.
And so a lot of the times we haven't put our shield up for that long.
That's why it's so much harder to do it later on in life.
Yeah.
So we bring more of our, we've always been bringing authentic self when you're younger,
but then when you're older, you slowly start to build the shield up and feels there's more
effort to...
Everything is more calculated.
And also, I guess you want to value your time differently.
You want to recuperate, you want to do things that you deem valuable.
Or you're just that busy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it's always a risk, a gamble, how you are when you go up and meet up with a new
friend or new friends, you might come back empty handed and you might go, really not
worth the time.
But without that continuous trial and error, it's going to be hard.
So then there are people, and I'm sure that there's plenty, who have got friends, regardless
of whether it's a big circle of friends or small and tight pack of wolves, where you
still feel lonely.
So maybe it is the question of trust more than just a pure relationship.
Trust in context of belonging together in sort of like a mental space.
So from my perspective, I think trust is definitely something that's worth evaluating when you
are speaking to one person or a group of friends that you think are close friends.
But they can be paradoxical situations happen at the same time where you feel that you can
really connect with high school friends and they're all on your wavelength and they know
what you're talking about and you can open your heart and talk about difficult things.
However, on the other aspect of it, I can still feel quite lonely because I am forging
a path of my own.
Because I'm trailblazing, there is a path that none have taken before.
And so I do feel that sometimes if I can talk to this person about every part of my life,
whether it's work, personal, emotional, then I would feel less lonely.
But when I was reading my Angelo's book in quote, where you belong to yourself, to everyone
and no one at the same time, that hits me really hard because when you are doing something
different and when you have a very clear purpose in your life, it's not that easy to find people
who have the same shared vision.
And so embracing that and understand that sometimes feeling lonely is not a bad thing.
It is part of the route that you have to take.
Yeah, I would consider that in more professional life, for example, at work or whether your
career is taking you or whether you're in a leadership position, it's very hard to form
bonds with people that you have around you.
And sometimes you have to make unpopular decision and you are lonely with them because you take
the responsibility for them.
I think it also might also happen in personal situation when people make a choice, when
they, like we said, set boundaries and decide not to spend as much time with people that
drains them.
But it can be also people stepping out of abusive relationship or decide to get a divorce
because they know that this will make them happier.
It might make them really unpopular depending on what their culture is and the support network
around them.
But that for me is valid on the assumption then that there is a purpose, so that you're
going to be better off following that path than not, than choosing not to.
However, I agree.
However, they do still feel lonely when they take on that path of the, inverted commas,
uncommon path.
Yeah, unpopular and, you know, and going off.
And I completely get that you couldn't feel lonely and that it can be a positive feeling
sometime, but it's perseverance and having the clear purpose of it that will help you
to take you through it.
Because sometimes you have to cut all the ties and it is a very lonely place to be.
And it is a very scary place to be.
And it's very hard.
And it is extremely hard.
It is, you know, sometimes unimaginable how much effort it takes to find yourself in a
new position and to find yourself around new people, especially that you could be, for
example, scarred by certain relationships, then forging new ones becomes borderline impossible.
And that's where we can really start feeling that being down and that can lead to some
more severe, you know, consequences health wise.
Yeah.
Like depression, like, you know, stress, anxiety, and all sorts of others.
So I think this is where it's important to try to find people that you can at least find
some common ground, some connection, support group for that matter.
I think also loneliness can be deemed as something really painful because we are surrounded by
constant media if you allow yourself to be.
And so you are surrounded by filtered information.
So you choose who you are looking at, but understanding that what is shown to you are
almost like an Instagram filter.
And so in doing that can feel really lonely.
And also in doing that can feel quite painful because it's not a feeling that you want to
have, and it's very easy to, or I should say it's easier to numb that with something else.
Whether it's looking at other things or pointing other things or judge other things to make
yourself feel better, but learning and having the ability to be with it because feeling
lonely sometimes it's not a bad thing.
Just coming from my own reflection because I do enjoy alone time, but sometimes I feel
I wish I can find more people with similar understanding or similar purpose.
I know I've got you and I've got some close knit friends, but not a lot that are very
close by, but it also gives me a chance to be grateful to what I've got currently.
And also for me to embrace the uncomfortable and perhaps sometimes painful feeling that
yes, I do feel lonely sometimes.
And just like Michelangelo said, I belong to everyone and no one at the same time.
And this is a very strange stage or place to be because we are human, so we always want
to belong to a group of people.
We want to feel that.
We're social creatures.
Yeah, we're social creatures.
And so Brené Brown mentioned this in her book, Braving the Wilderness, where it is
so hard to accept that, yeah, I belong to my family and the few people that I let in.
Other than that, sometimes I know I crave that friendship and connection, but do I want
to put in the effort?
I am not sure because I think there is always this element of fear of being vulnerable.
And also perhaps a bit of fear of do I want to not just wasting my time, but do I want
to feel more tired after than before?
Yeah, I think that, as you said, it's very individual in how we approach situation people
around us.
It's important to find people that we can talk to.
Like, you know, we started doing podcasts not to talk.
We started doing podcasts because we were already talking.
This was the right sequence and that's where I know.
And now it's been, what, 10 years since I know that I can rely on you and you're there
for me.
I hope you're going to stay with me.
It's always about us.
And I think that it's very important to prepare ourselves internally for those moments that
sometimes we can feel lonely in the decisions that we make, in the choices that we pursue.
I think resilience and optimism helps, but it's not essential to understand that those
feelings of loneliness have to last forever.
Yeah.
And, you know, resilience has been thrown around a lot in the past year or two.
And sometimes when you low on that, when you just want to say, I really don't have that
today, or I really don't have that this week and I want to have a breakdown or a meltdown
or a cry or get my gloves off and punch a boxing bag or something, do that.
I think more than anything, embracing it and be with it is much, much better than avoiding
it in any other way.
Yeah.
Because then you become estranged.
Then you're looking at some people around me.
I said, it's more like you push yourself to be on the side and you then become, I don't
know, start to feel, or you want to react by starting to feel better about yourself.
And you do it in a very unpleasant and unkind way.
And that's where some of the negative things are coming into play, like being obnoxious,
rude to others and trying to create even more barriers.
And that is, it drenches you even more and you become more lonely and you blame the world
for it.
Yep.
And not pause and reflect.
And not pause and reflect that you have an impact on it, that you can do it essentially.
I think this is very good point where we can reflect if we are lonely to say, well, actually,
where is it coming from?
Is it because of people around us?
Is it because we are not the best in judging people's characters and we have to get better
at it?
Is it because we've been forced people into our surroundings that are just toxic to us?
And sometimes, you know, we augment reality in many different ways.
I mean, that's where addictions come to play.
This is where it distorts and augments your reality even more.
And then you sort of get into the spiral of all these problems.
So the best thing is to try to learn those moments, those signs where we start to look
at others and question them in the right way.
And there is one more thing that you mentioned when we go into like Instagram or feeds or
whatever on social media in general.
We get part of very fragmented reality and we feel like don't belong there because our
life is not worth it.
Boring, you know, not as glossy as that.
And despite having hundreds and thousands of friends in our social media, how many people
do we actually remember?
How many people do we send birthday wishes on?
Or, you know, if somebody sends a birthday wish, how many times you just say, Oh, thank
you.
Cheers.
How are you doing?
You know, I hope I hope that you are well.
I would like to see the list of friends as a list of very good memories I have with those
people over the many years.
And you go back to certain events through remembering those people.
And it doesn't necessarily mean that those people are going to have a great impact on
how you feel.
In fact, you might feel lonely despite having thousands of people on Facebook, Twitter,
wherever you choose to augment your reality with.
But I think it's important to understand that real world or virtual world can both play
role in making sure that this loneliness, if it happens, it's purposeful.
And if it's not helping you to get through the day, to see what steps we can take in
ourselves to prevent it.
Would you agree with this to some extent?
Absolutely.
I hope that there will be people who agree with it.
I hope that there will be people who wouldn't agree with it.
And we welcome everybody.
We are learning.
We're very imperfect.
We're very imperfect and we want to improve, get better, know more, yeah?
Expand our horizons.
Let us know what you think about loneliness, how you deal with it.
And how you perhaps address it.
Yeah.
And the tips welcome.
If they're not going to help us, I'm sure that there will be people listening to see
how it can benefit their lives.
That's it from us today.
And we hope you tune in the following week when we have more exciting things to talk
about.
Thank you very much.
Bye-bye.
It's about time for Yuen Reads.
We are exploring Yuval Harari Homo Deus.
While we live and breathe in the acceleration of AI, artificial intelligence, it felt almost
too far away when it was written in 2015 by Yuval Harari in this book.
When I was reading it, I thought, is it even possible?
It was at least six years ago, but now reflecting on this book, it is so scarily on point that
it made me think in ways I have not thought possible.
And so I felt I was entertained, shocked and blown away all at the same time.
Definitely an eye-opener.
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