How To Talk So People Will Listen: The Ultimate Guide To Conversational Intelligence

Guess what? I know how to talk to people, so they listen to me.
No, no. I know how to talk to people, so they listen to me.
You know nothing.
You need to listen to me.
It's time to talk about talking to others so that they can listen to us a bit better.
My name is Mike.
And it's Yuen.
Welcome to The Imperfect Clinician.
Welcome to the final episode of third season of The Imperfect Clinician podcast.
We've been having conversations about so many different things so far.
And we're talking to you, the listener.
We were conversing between each other.
We had lots of discussions, debating, some arguing, I guess.
But how do we talk to others so that that other person listens to us?
Why did you want to talk about it, Yuen?
This was triggered by quite numerous questions from different people
that came down to the same question that we're trying to raise today.
How do I raise a point, and how do I make sure that the other party listens?
And the majority of the time, this was raised to me and to yourself in a more challenging situation.
So for example, if I am working in an environment where people are arguing,
I don't really want to take a side.
I don't really know what to do, but I am in a leadership position.
Or they've come to me because they value my opinion.
How should I go about it?
And so I think it's important to acknowledge that when you're in that position, it can feel quite helpless.
It might make you feel out of control because you can't control everyone's emotions.
You can't control people's reaction.
However, what you can control is how you react to it and what you say.
Okay, so first of all, in order to be listened by others,
I guess we first have to consider, why do we want to talk to people?
So why do we talk to people?
I think we talk to people for a variety of reasons.
However, as human social animals, I think I'll put it that way, we long for connection.
We want to belong.
And so talking and discussing is a way of understanding each other
and be heard, be part of a group, be included.
Or belong.
Yes.
Okay, so I feel that we talk to people to build certain relationships,
to engage and try to usually see whether the people around us are maybe like-minded,
maybe we share certain ideas, certain thoughts.
At work, you share work, so you talk to communicate certain messages.
But this is only a small part of what we talk about to people from work.
So building relationships for me is quite an important part of the whole concept of conversation with others
or engagement with others.
Even if you say hello to somebody on the street, I don't know, to your neighbour,
this is still working on some sort of relationship.
It's like investing in cooperation.
And I think that for me, because I do talk a lot, I do talk a lot to people.
And I think it comes from the need to be social, the need to interact and to try to understand others.
Because despite whether one person talks more than the others, you still gauge the reaction,
you still gauge the emotion.
And I think for me, it's quite precious to talk face to face.
I prefer to be directly involved, engaged.
I have a probably good eye for details and seeing how people respond to what I'm telling them.
Sometimes provoking certain reactions, sometimes pushing the boundaries just to see how people respond to them
is very interesting to me.
And I find it fascinating because I do love people and I think everybody has a story
and I would like to listen to that story.
But it's hard to do it without having that relationship.
And I think before we get to how to make sure that people are engaging with you,
try imagining situations for you where you just stop listening, you stop engaging.
And why did you feel that way?
So give me an example of two or three situations where you feel like you've stopped listening to what they're trying to say.
More than one. Two or three situations. Okay, I'll do my best.
I guess when people are not listening to me.
Okay.
Okay, so I think that would be the first thing when you're trying to convey the point that might be very important to you
and people just shut it down and they're just plainly not listening.
Okay.
Another thing is when people are being rude or angry or shouting at you, at me,
I am then convinced that the conversation is not going to end up well and you just shut off.
And then you just defend yourself sometimes through attacks as well because we all have emotions.
Verbal attacks.
Yeah, verbal attacks. Don't get any ideas.
And if you care about something, you become passionate and then you don't want to be insulted.
You don't want your family to be insulted or your partner.
And you talk back and this is where you're actually not listening.
Then you're just responding and there is no positive outcome.
Yeah.
There is no chance.
How would you react if you've been told what to do?
I guess that depends on the context.
Okay.
But that falls into being talked at.
Okay.
So if somebody's talking at you, I understand that an emergency situation would be somebody,
get off the roads.
Okay.
If there's a car coming, then you have to listen.
If you are aware of surroundings, you want to have a bit of a self-preservation
and you will listen to those messages that are quite urgently needed.
But if somebody is just talking at you and you obviously create a barrier in front of yourself
and you go and say, uh-huh, I'm definitely going to do that.
Yeah, as if.
And even if you are forced to do it because of, I don't know, work obligation or whatever,
a boss is shouting at you, you're not going to do it fully engaged
and the results of it are going to be just quite reactive, I guess.
So you've mentioned a couple of things there I think we need to highlight.
One, we need to ensure that the other party's being listened to.
So it's important to acknowledge their emotions and what they're trying to say along the line of,
I hear you, I can see this is really upsetting you, or I can see this is affecting you.
And then perhaps ask more questions because that's how you show interest, that's how you show that you care.
Tell me a little bit more before you even get to anything, so that will be one thing.
The other thing you talked about, feeling quite defensive.
So you've mentioned how people talk to you that make you feel quite defensive.
I think it's important that we discuss that in a little bit more detail.
How do we engage without the other person putting the barrier up?
And I think the third thing, which is unavoidable, is when people come to you with a struggle or a problem,
it's very easy for anyone who's listening to take on that emotional burden.
And that emotional burden can do quite a few things.
It can drain you. You might feel that you are directly responsible because you take it personally.
It's almost like, if it's happening in my team, it's my problem.
It's my personal problem. I'm not good enough that this is happening.
And how do you manage the emotional burden afterwards?
How do you let it out?
Whether it's using a rant, a verbal one, a written one, or speaking to somebody,
I think acknowledging the emotional burden is really important,
especially if you're working day in, day out with the same group of people.
It can slowly eat away. Would you agree?
Yeah, you're right. So you would say your top three would be to listen, to address emotional burden.
What was the second one?
And how do we speak to make sure that the other party is not feeling defensive?
Yeah, so you want to make sure that you maintain calm, composed, and I guess direct?
Curious.
Curious, yeah.
If you show curiosity, I think you basically sorted problem one and two
because you are showing them that you are interested and you want to find out more.
And so when they are able to open up and tell you more, they feel listened to.
And then once they feel heard, then the emotions peak of it.
After an argument, people feel quite, let's say, angry or frustrated.
Once they feel listened to, then they become slightly a bit calmer
because if somebody says,
I can't believe this has happened to me. I can't believe that person said that.
And then if you say, Oh, I'm sure it's all in your head,
it's almost saying that your emotions, I don't agree. I don't see it. Please brush it aside.
Instead of saying, I can see that you're really upset by this. Tell me a little bit more.
And so by choosing one or two different routes,
you ensure the other party's fight or flight system gets toned down where they go,
Okay, somebody's here. Somebody's willing to listen. I have a safe place I can go to.
Or the other way of, No, they're not listening. The fight or flight then goes even stronger.
So I think acknowledging the first step would help.
You mentioned about feeling defensive when you're being taught to.
And I think that can happen very easily in many circumstances.
However, in a healthcare system, or like you said, in a life-saving situation,
sometimes we have to say, do this or that.
But in a lot of times when there are misunderstanding or arguments or miscommunication in the team,
We have a choice how to say it.
Yeah, we have a choice of how to say it, but also we are not in that situation.
So we weren't in that argument. We weren't in that discussion.
We don't know the intricacy of the relationship because we're not part of it.
And so very easily we can step into the, let me just give you some ways and I will solve the problem for you.
It's very easy to step into the problem solving, feeling the need to be a saviour
because you feel that might be your responsibility because they've come to you.
They must want an opinion or they must want ways to tackle it.
And a lot of the times I find when dealing with more human connections or friction of that such,
it's more about asking questions.
So I mentioned earlier on, tell me a little bit more.
I sometimes usually probe with, why did you think? And then tell me more.
Tell me your side of the story and what were you trying to say and tell me more.
And you slowly have more of a picture because imagine if somebody is really angry about something,
they wouldn't say, I can't believe A said this to me. She must be disrespecting me.
When they're in that state, they're not in that frame of mind to go,
Oh, I think A is feeling quite tired. She might not mean it.
Because if that were the case, that would have been resolved before coming to you.
Whereas if they have come to you, it means that the emotions are in the driving seat for them.
And by asking questions and probing and not taking any sides, it's just I am here as an observer.
And if you explain the situation and give me a little bit more perspective from parties involved,
what you have heard and what the other person's trying to say, because sometimes there are ill intentions.
Sometimes it is being taken incorrectly, even though they don't mean to hurt.
And it happens in any relationship, whether it's work.
The perception of people is different. You have different thresholds, you have different views,
you have different experience and a different run up to the conversation.
You might be differently emotionally involved in the conversation.
You might be already set with an agenda that you're expecting what's going to happen.
So I'm going to respond to it in a certain way.
Yeah, I'm not going to like what you're going to tell me.
So now convince me and no matter what you're going to do,
it will be difficult for you to deconstruct that wall that was built even before the conversation started.
Exactly. And I absolutely agree with that because, like you said, the wall was built not five minutes ago.
Yeah, there was a run up.
Yeah, there was a run up and usually quite a few run ups to it.
Every interaction made a break.
And because it wasn't discussed, it was just suppressed and kept.
And the wall just kept building and became higher and higher.
And at one point it blinds you because it blocked your view.
I'm listening to you, I'm listening to you.
But I'm going, whether you like it or not, I'm going to tell you about my top three things
that I think would make a good communicator that is listened to.
Okay.
For me, three things is, they cover, they are slightly similar probably to what you were saying,
but obviously I think different people have got different focus.
I think that to be a good communicator, to tell people things, first of all, you have to be a good listener.
Very important because that allows you to not only build connection but also understand other people's point.
Second thing for me would be to care about the person.
Because if you care about the person, you're going to approach the engagement differently.
You're not going to judge.
And the third one for me is not to be judgmental.
These are top three. Listen, care, and don't be judgmental.
These are things that for me stand out as a good starting point to become listened.
Because if you care about others, others start caring about what you have to say.
If you care about others, you will explain your arguments.
If you care about others, you will attempt to understand their emotions.
Or even if you can't understand them, you'll give the opportunity to express those emotions.
And again, like you said, when you demonstrate this regularly, because it's, again, not a two-minute thing,
if you demonstrate that you care about somebody, they're more likely to come to you.
Because how many times have we heard, oh, I can't really talk to him, he's just not open.
Unapproachable.
Yeah, unapproachable, or he reacts straight away.
Those are based on day-to-day interactions, and it builds up in months, years.
Well, there's a number of other things that, for example, come to play,
especially in conversations with your co-workers, for example, with clarity, with your family, honesty, for example.
There are all sorts of different other important factors that make you a valued conversational partner.
But I think that focusing on those three, so listen, care, do not judge, is for me key.
Why do you think being judgmental can be one of the barriers,
one of the biggest, for me personally, the biggest barriers to effective communicating?
I think it's because when you judge, you have a preconception.
And when you have a preconception, you can't do the first two things that you're trying to do, which is listening and caring.
Yeah, I think that you're already coming to the conversation with an agenda.
With a biased view.
Yeah, you're already biased, and you already made up your mind.
So you're not really coming open-minded to the discussion.
I think this is quite an important thing to work on those biases, because we are biased.
We have got our own ideas in the head.
We were talking about it before, that those brain shortcuts that allow us to navigate through quite complex world around us,
rather in a bit more efficient way.
But they don't serve us well in the conversations.
But before you ask your what question that you just was about to ask, before I listen to it,
I wanted to ask you, can bias be good?
Because it has very negative connotation.
And I'll tell you what I have in mind.
But first I'll ask you, do you think that there could be a good bias?
I'm sure you'll give me an example of a good bias now that you've asked that question.
I don't know. There's lots of pressure.
So for me, bias or being judgmental creates shortcuts in your brain that allow you to think much faster, much more efficient.
And you can read people's emotions a little bit quicker by making those assumptions.
So you can sometimes, even subconsciously, we are given certain signs with our body language and everything else.
And when you pick it up from the person that you are going to have a conversation with,
even before they realize what mental state they're in, you are able to diffuse their anger, upset, feeling emotional,
before you even get to it. Because you prepare.
So you say, aha, I can see, you know, they're tapping on a table or tapping on a desk,
and they haven't even come to the conclusion that they are getting wound up about something.
And you are able to diffuse the conversation or redirect the conversation onto trying to be open about how they feel.
I wouldn't call that as bias. I would call that as having awareness of emotions.
So if you have the practice of being more aware of your own emotions and the signs to look out for,
you're more likely to be more in tune with the people around you.
So positive bias is awareness.
So I wouldn't call it bias. I would call it awareness.
Because this is having the emotional awareness, and that is a skill that needs to be practiced.
Is it judgmental? Is it being judgmental?
I don't think so.
I mean, judgmental has a very negative connotation.
Because judgmental is almost like, oh, that person's angry.
For me, emotional awareness is that person feels angry, or that's an angry, but he's always angry, or she's always angry.
Yeah, you're right. You made a preconception.
Yes, you're judging the emotions as the whole of a person.
But my question before was, I hear this quite a lot.
It's an aftermath of the question. We'll address the emotional burden in a second.
I really want to tell them what to do because I think my idea is going to work.
What would you say to that?
Well, it's a matter of landing it.
It's a matter of what structure of the conversation you're going to build.
So if you're approaching the situation from a teacher and a pupil point of view,
that you're telling the pupil what to do, are you going to get enough buy-in to get the desired results?
Because approaching people from the partner to partner might yield much better results.
For me, as I'm considering that, I would say it's a matter of how flat the structure of the conversation is.
So if this is a vertical conversation, so you feel cleverer than others and you're telling people what to do,
this is going to have a different buy-in or, in my opinion, unless you have a leverage,
do this and I'll pay you a billion pounds.
Then people are able to adapt that sort of approach and say, okay, do you know what?
The cost and benefit is, yeah, it still doesn't make it right in a lot of cases.
But when it comes to a more horizontal approach, so you have got people who you treat as equals
and you don't want to put yourself in a higher position.
So if you're trying to explain the point clearly, what are the benefits, potentially risks as well,
so you do on the fly swot analysis of all the positive and negative things that might potentially happen.
If you build your case, then you are much more likely to get the buy-in from the person you're telling it to.
But what happens if you can't do it?
If people are and you still want to force your idea and people say, no, it's not good.
I think when you force that idea, like you said, it feels like then you've been talked to
and the other party then gets defensive.
And once they are defensive, that's it, the listening side of them is switched off.
Okay, so I have this problem with our children, okay?
Because I'm telling them, I want you to put your clothes on because we have to slowly get ready
because the time is coming to where you need to brush your teeth and have your breakfast
and we need to get to the car because there might be traffic.
I've explained, I've been open, I've been honest and also quite likely ignored.
And then you repeat it, you make stronger case, you watch your clock
and it's getting to the point that you really could do with getting the move on
because you're going to be late because you're thinking, I have work to do,
I have things to finish off, new things to start and everything else.
So you're getting more emotionally involved in it
and you're getting more angry and then you snap and shout.
So just like exactly what you said on how it's landing,
if a way that you're saying it's not landing,
there are lots of different ways to be creative and to be playful about it.
That's one thing.
You're not always in the mood to be creative and playful.
Yes, and that is your role to have the emotional awareness as a parent.
But this is no different when you are in a workplace
and somebody said, I can't believe they said that to me.
And you might want to say, take it easy.
Or you might want to say, just ignore them.
Or you might want to say they don't mean it.
And that is an easier option because it's just, I've said it,
as long as you do it, it's fine.
But it is not.
And I find that when you give solutions all the time to people,
regardless of how the structure is in the conversation, like you said,
more hierarchical or a flatter structure,
the other party don't have a chance to learn.
I think that I don't give them the opportunity to empower themselves.
For them to come to the realization themselves,
I think that is the crucial importance.
Between somebody told me to do this
or I came to this conclusion myself,
in the latter circumstances, people are more likely to follow through
and it's more likely to stick with them in dealing with future things
because they've changed their perspective
and they've approached it differently.
They're more involved in it.
Exactly, they're more involved in it.
And sometimes it can be you know what they need to do,
but you don't tell them and you ask plenty of questions
for them to come to the same conclusion
or even a better conclusion than what you have in mind
and they feel more empowered and they will take action.
So being creative in the landing,
in how the message is being put across is really important.
Same for kids, same for adults.
Maybe I just need to build greater capacity for my patients in the morning
or wake them up at three o'clock in the morning
to have enough time for all the things they want to do.
But usually, just to give context,
they do that with you and when I do it with them,
as Mike can tell you, I try lots of different ways.
I talk to them, I dress them as I'm talking to them.
I might play a game. There's lots of different ways,
but I know this is something where you go,
this is something that has to be done every morning.
It should be a bit easier than that.
Yeah, but this usually happens after I'm about 10 inches above the ground of anger.
No, I try not to. Yeah, working on it.
So I think we talk about the emotional burden
and I think it's really important to address that
because if there is conflict ongoing in the workplace
and it directly impacts you,
understanding that how much it impacts you,
whether they come to you or not,
will impact not just you but everyone in the team
because you can't be hearing those arguments or conflict
and not let it affect you.
So back to having a place or a way or maybe different ways
for you to have emotional outlet is really important.
We talked about it in our previous episodes
where you need to make sure that whatever that you take on for the day
needs to be emptied out, whether it's verbally
or whether you write it down in a journal,
whether you speak to a friend, whether you meditate,
whichever way that works for you.
Yeah, we're talking about it.
I think it feeds into the no sleepless nights.
Yeah, part of that, just to close those things off and not to worry.
Yeah, and the other part is if you are part of that workplace
and they come to you for advice,
it might sit with you differently
because you have the additional burden of somebody that they can trust,
maybe somebody senior, maybe more of a leader
that they want to come to you.
And as we know, problems like this can't be solved overnight.
And so the additional burden of I have to solve this problem
or it weighs on me as a leader, it weighs on me as a person,
it's a practice of dividing how the day has gone
and how you are as a person.
And we talked about it in our shorts,
we talked about it in our previous episodes,
having the practice to not let the day define who you are as a person.
So it will be, I had a very stressful day
and I couldn't resolve the conflict,
but I'm still a good ex, fill in the blank.
I'm still a good person, I'm still a good clinician,
I'm still a good whichever role that you're playing then,
I'm still a good father, and learning to distance it from there.
And the same thing when you're having a good day,
I am still a good person,
it shouldn't be directly correlated to how the day is,
whether it's productive day, not productive day,
what your emotional state is, having the practice.
And trust me, some days are harder than the others,
but the more that you, almost like a mantra that you repeat to yourself constantly,
you build a new neural pathway to know that you're a good person.
And it might be very cringey at the start when you say this to yourself,
but with time it would really, really help.
It charges you.
I guess it also increases your capacity to deal with certain problems
when you are not defined by one particular situation or problem or conversation,
because you then are charging yourself with a value.
So whatever happens in any conversation is a completely different approach,
and your state of mind is much different.
It's much more calm and composed, I want to say.
Yeah.
The other thing is to keep an eye out.
When you take everything in personally, very easily it will stretch you,
and you will get burnt out very quickly.
We mentioned burnout in the start of our season,
and it is useful to check in internally where you go,
where I am, how am I feeling,
so you don't only realise it when you get to the point of no return.
Very important. It's a part of self-care.
So we've covered quite a bit today.
I think one of the things that is very easily overlooked
is the point about integrity and trust that you mentioned in passing previously.
When you come and tell me a problem, especially in the workplace,
it's very easy to either talk about it with somebody else
or just mention it in passing.
But if they've come to you in private,
make sure you keep it confidential,
because if not, it makes it really hard for people around you
to trust you and to see your integrity.
So an example that I would give is Mike comes and talks to me
about a difficulty with Christina.
And because I was trying to make sure that I am on your side almost,
I'm trying to build a connection with you,
I said, oh, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
Christina said she's experienced so-and-so with Julia, for example.
And even though I didn't break my promise to you in terms of keeping it confidential,
I'm talking about somebody else's issue.
I'm talking about Christina's and Julia's issue to you without their consent.
And by doing that, your trust in me will be also affected.
And so making sure that the matters that are being raised
and you were made aware of those situations in confidence
need to stay in a vault and not shed,
because we talked about that brick-by-brick situation.
The trust and integrity is a reputation that takes time to build
and very easily destroyed.
No one could have said it better.
One more thing before we go, I would like to tell everyone, share with everyone,
I think that it's very important to stick to being an authentic self.
And be honest, open, people will sense it,
and your message will get through much more effectively,
and you will get this buy-in that can only get through that personal connection.
Love people, and people will love you back.
And if they don't love you back, then at least they can tolerate you a bit more,
depending on who you are.
If not tough, we don't need everyone to like us.
Absolutely.
Okay, thank you very much for staying with us during this episode and the whole season.
We hope you enjoyed.
We hope you connected to some of the issues that we have raised.
And I trust that you're going to join us when we come back with Season 4.
We're looking forward to that.
We have plenty of ideas.
We just need some time to put it all together, and we'll come back to you soon.
Thank you to everybody who supported us so far.
Thank you to all those involved commenting, rating us, and reaching out to us for help,
all with a good word.
We all appreciate you all, and thank you very much.
We'll see you in the next season.
Bye-bye.
It's been an eye-catching quote for me.
It says,
What story would Eve have told about picking the apple if she was given the chance to do it?
I always know that history is written by the victors.
History is not grounded by facts, but based on victors' experience most of the time.
So what if women had been storytellers too?
What if women had been given an opportunity to do it?
How would the world of today change?
I feel it is an inclusive approach in the book, sprinkled with humour.
And she's able to provide tools for me that I feel, not just for me, but for all,
regardless of gender, to embrace being both gentle and brave, caring and powerful.
We can straddle both sides, and I feel this is something that I strongly, strongly agree.
That's a point that probably we've mentioned in the podcast, but I cannot stress enough.
Change in culture starts with inner change.
Start within, and you will see the ripple effect going further than you can imagine.
We take to heart the ratings, reviews and comments.
The best way we can repay you is by making this podcast better,
and by reaching and inspiring more people like you, like us.
Until next time.
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